Just bought a 260TVP, amazing tones! but its a real shame that theres no way of balancing patch volumes without sacrificing tone.
Its possible to match the volumes of say a clean patch with a crunch patch using the pre-amp volume, but this def. sacrifices tone in some cases.
I`ve come from a line6 setup where a master patch volume was available for each patch allowing you to "match" each patche`s volume (or even boost some for solos).
for most pub gigging situations people are gonna want a "default" patch level for all but a few boosted solo patches. Fiddling with the amps master volume "on the fly" is not an option.
also, no volume rocker on the foot controller....... really?
This really should be possible in the pc software.
LF
ID: 260TVP patch volume
I too have an ID260 (for a few weeks now) & what a cracking amp it is (replacing a Line 6 Spider IV 150 & a Peavey Classic 50 4x10)
I admit it is a bit tricky balancing the volume of different patches .. but in my experience (with the Line 6) this is very true of other programmable amps no matter what controls are available.
However I find that as there is so much overall raw volume available from the ID260, plus having the different volumes available from the various Tube selections, as well as the range of patch gain & volume controls, it is possible to successfully match patch volumes (for clean to dirty sounds) and simply use a single level on the master volume for all patches .... & no tone sacrifices necessary!
I've found that if you start in the right place with your main dirty tone as your reference level patch at a reasonable volume level with plenty of scope to increase & reduce via the master control, there should be be no need to make any tone compromises in matching up the volumes of your other tones/patches.
I've found that the real trick is getting the dirty patches to be as loud as the clean ones when on stage (next to a loud drummer & bass player!) .. matching the patch volumes at home-alone gets you close but usually ends up with the dirty patches a touch too quiet .. but with a bit of practise & a gig or 2, this can be fine tuned to perfection easily & quickly.
As for a volume pedal, I am using a MIDI board (FCB1010) which works great with the ID260 with one of the 2 pedals acting on each patch as a volume pedal .... and is much more useful in a live situation than the FS10 foot-switch.
The MIDI implementation in the ID series is fantastic, facilitating full control of the amp in a live situation; from patch select, effects on/off, solo boost, effect real-time control, tap-delay & volume.
Of course if they do make further level adjustments possible in the software, all well & good. But even as it is now works great for me!!
I admit it is a bit tricky balancing the volume of different patches .. but in my experience (with the Line 6) this is very true of other programmable amps no matter what controls are available.
However I find that as there is so much overall raw volume available from the ID260, plus having the different volumes available from the various Tube selections, as well as the range of patch gain & volume controls, it is possible to successfully match patch volumes (for clean to dirty sounds) and simply use a single level on the master volume for all patches .... & no tone sacrifices necessary!
I've found that if you start in the right place with your main dirty tone as your reference level patch at a reasonable volume level with plenty of scope to increase & reduce via the master control, there should be be no need to make any tone compromises in matching up the volumes of your other tones/patches.
I've found that the real trick is getting the dirty patches to be as loud as the clean ones when on stage (next to a loud drummer & bass player!) .. matching the patch volumes at home-alone gets you close but usually ends up with the dirty patches a touch too quiet .. but with a bit of practise & a gig or 2, this can be fine tuned to perfection easily & quickly.
As for a volume pedal, I am using a MIDI board (FCB1010) which works great with the ID260 with one of the 2 pedals acting on each patch as a volume pedal .... and is much more useful in a live situation than the FS10 foot-switch.
The MIDI implementation in the ID series is fantastic, facilitating full control of the amp in a live situation; from patch select, effects on/off, solo boost, effect real-time control, tap-delay & volume.
Of course if they do make further level adjustments possible in the software, all well & good. But even as it is now works great for me!!
-
lightening_fingers
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Sun Aug 04, 2013 9:17 am
CuztardPi
thanks for the reply some useful info in there, especially the bit about the midi controller.
So are you able to assign the volume rocker to the master volume control?
I must admit from a fairly well thought out amp, this pedal board is particularly crap. Really inflexible from a gigging perspective.
I know very little about midi, can you switch patches aswell as toggle effects on/off from the same board layout? i.e. unlike the footswitch where you need to "change modes" to toggle effects from the patch selection mode. I`m used to my line6 FBV shortboard where I could bank select, patch switch and toggle effects all from 1 simple layout without needing to hold buttons down to switch modes.
as far as the patch volumes go, I`m still a bit confused.
I`ve got a blinding crunch patch that has the peramp volume set at about 3 oclock, which is at a particular sweet spot. The problem is that this is fairly loud relative to some of my clean patches, and also means theres very little pre-amp head room left for a solo boost on my lead patch (3 oclock to full)
backing off the pre-amp volume on the crunch patch (say to 12 oclock) increases headroom on the solo boost patch now (12 oclock to full) but looses some of tone on the crunch patch
Also I`ve found that the power amp value choice really can have different volumes.
The bit I`m struggling with is that the pre amp volume shapes the tone as well as affecting the patch volume, really these 2 parameters need separating, I know they are inherently linked and that in essence is part of the valve amp beauty, but setting up for a gig set is going to be a pain.
It cant be THAT hard in the amps software to be able to normalize the patch volumes.
overall though, this thing has INSANE tone for the money.
LF
thanks for the reply some useful info in there, especially the bit about the midi controller.
So are you able to assign the volume rocker to the master volume control?
I must admit from a fairly well thought out amp, this pedal board is particularly crap. Really inflexible from a gigging perspective.
I know very little about midi, can you switch patches aswell as toggle effects on/off from the same board layout? i.e. unlike the footswitch where you need to "change modes" to toggle effects from the patch selection mode. I`m used to my line6 FBV shortboard where I could bank select, patch switch and toggle effects all from 1 simple layout without needing to hold buttons down to switch modes.
as far as the patch volumes go, I`m still a bit confused.
I`ve got a blinding crunch patch that has the peramp volume set at about 3 oclock, which is at a particular sweet spot. The problem is that this is fairly loud relative to some of my clean patches, and also means theres very little pre-amp head room left for a solo boost on my lead patch (3 oclock to full)
backing off the pre-amp volume on the crunch patch (say to 12 oclock) increases headroom on the solo boost patch now (12 oclock to full) but looses some of tone on the crunch patch
Also I`ve found that the power amp value choice really can have different volumes.
The bit I`m struggling with is that the pre amp volume shapes the tone as well as affecting the patch volume, really these 2 parameters need separating, I know they are inherently linked and that in essence is part of the valve amp beauty, but setting up for a gig set is going to be a pain.
It cant be THAT hard in the amps software to be able to normalize the patch volumes.
overall though, this thing has INSANE tone for the money.
LF
I think the whole 'mismatched volume' thing is more than a software issue - it's something I've struggled with on all my amps (solid state and valve).
It's to do with how we hear sound at different levels.
As CuztardPi mentioned, you can set your levels so they sound great at home / low volume. Switching from clean to dirty gives a nice little boost and everything's rosy. However, transfer those same settings to the stage, and with your master volume up so your clean sound is loud enough, when you switch to dirty it suddenly vanishes. You need a much bigger hike in the volume setting to get the same perceived jump in actual volume.
It really is jus a matter of setting up your patches at the volumes you're likely to use them at - and a little bit of compromise.
Oh, and as for the FCB1010, it'll do everything you want and more! I used to run one, and you can assign any switch to any function - so setting up patch select with fx on/off is a doddle. In fact IIRC you can even assign 2 different parameter values to a switch - I'm sure I had each switch set to select a patch on the first 'tap' and then turn the effects on in that patch on the second 'tap'. I might be wrong, but there's no doubt it's a versatile bit of kit that will open up lots of new possibilities with your amp!
It's to do with how we hear sound at different levels.
As CuztardPi mentioned, you can set your levels so they sound great at home / low volume. Switching from clean to dirty gives a nice little boost and everything's rosy. However, transfer those same settings to the stage, and with your master volume up so your clean sound is loud enough, when you switch to dirty it suddenly vanishes. You need a much bigger hike in the volume setting to get the same perceived jump in actual volume.
It really is jus a matter of setting up your patches at the volumes you're likely to use them at - and a little bit of compromise.
Oh, and as for the FCB1010, it'll do everything you want and more! I used to run one, and you can assign any switch to any function - so setting up patch select with fx on/off is a doddle. In fact IIRC you can even assign 2 different parameter values to a switch - I'm sure I had each switch set to select a patch on the first 'tap' and then turn the effects on in that patch on the second 'tap'. I might be wrong, but there's no doubt it's a versatile bit of kit that will open up lots of new possibilities with your amp!
Hi LF,
I agree with you this amp is excellent value for money .. or rather I would say simply EXCELLENT actually!!
To try & give you some answers from my, admittedly only limited so far, experience with the ID260 ....
MIDI:
No, you can't control the master volume via MIDI (which would be a bad idea actually) .. but you can control the pre-amp volume (CC#7 with value 0 min to 127 max), which works great as a volume pedal. The pre-amp control lets you adjust the volume, via the pedal in real time, from 0 (or from a fixed minimum volume which is in practise more useful) up to either the full patch volume (or even higher if the pre-amp volume is not set to 10 on the amp for the particular patch)
e.g.
if a particular patch has an initial pre-amp volume of 7.5 on the amp (= 3 O'clock), this equates to a MIDI value of 7.5x12.7 = 95. Therefore in MIDI set your pedal to Control Change #7 with value 0 to 95. The pedal then lets you adjust the amp's volume from 0 to full patch volume (7.5).
Alternatively setting a minimum value greater than 0 would work better for volume swells; e.g. CC#7 with value 25 to 95.
Additionally in this example you could use the volume pedal to increase the patch level a bit by increasing the top value. e.g. CC#7 with value 0 to 127 (an increase of the maximum available patch volume from 7.5 to 10)
OK, per your goal of keeping the sweet spot of the patch-volume set to 7.5 might be compromised by using the pedal to adjust the pre-amp control to levels below 7.5 (but this is very subtle IMO); I guess it depends on what you want the volume pedal to do. I myself wouldn't use it a a solo boost control. For simple volume swells it works great ... & there is always your guitar volume control of course that interacts great with this amp (unlike some others)
There is so much flexibility via MIDI control you can set up the amp to be controlled just how you want it. The possibilities are almost only limited only by your imagination & ingenuity.
I've been using my Line 6 Spider IV 150 with a FBV MkII shortboard for a couple of years & really like the simplicity & ease & transportability & controllability of the rig: amp/ 2 leads/ pedal board, when compared to my previous heavy, bulky set-up of a Peavey Classic 50 4x10 with many pedals/effects, power supplies, leads. But the Line 6 never sounded as good as the Peavey at gig volumes (it had that typical digital thin, weedy tone and was very difficult to set up with matching volumes between clean & dirty patches). I had to have it virtually on full volume (150W !!!!) to be able to compete with the drums & bass; but it sounded different (i.e. worse!) at high volume when compared to how nice it sounded at home during setting up. Very frustrating!!!
When I read about the ID series, the reviews were great & seemed to be the answer to my problems. My only concern was the controllability in a live gigging situation. I needed a similar level of control that the Line 6 FVB gave me (like you say, to select patches, turn on/off effects, etc); the 4 footswitch FS10 pedal seemed of limited use from what i read & when I tried one out, I confirmed that it didn't provide the easy intuitive control I needed (i.e. it is virtually unusable in a live situation).
Being a bit of a Luddite when it comes to the tech side of music gear, I too had no previous experience of MIDI but was excited by what I read from other ID users about the power & flexibility of using a MIDI floorboard. So I took the plunge; sold the Line 6 & bought the ID260 together with the best value (cheapest) MIDI controller: the Behringer FCB1010 with UNO chip (at approx £120 total) which has 10 user programmable footswitches & 2 control pedals. This price compares IMO very favourably to the £50 for the FS10.
I'm still working with the FCB1010 & ID260 to get the perfect set-up for my use, but it has worked brilliantly in the few gigs that I've used it on so far. After each gig I come home with ideas for a few more tweaks to improve the control setup. But I can say that I'm very happy with it & it is a major improvement on my old Line 6 rig (& also the Peavey).
In my current ID260 & FBC1010 set-up I can:
Select 5 different patches using the bottom 5 buttons from clean to dirty (i.e. clean rythym /clean lead / clean-crunch / rocky-crunch / heavy) (i keep to a single bank of sounds for simplicity's sake but you can move between banks using the FCB1010 if you want to)
A 2nd press of each of the 5 patch-select buttons results a solo boost in volume for each patch/sound; a 3rd press removes the solo boost (see also my comments at the bottom).
The top 5 buttons are used in "stomp box" mode (due to the use of UNO chip mod to the FCB1010) which lets me turn on or off the ID260 built-in effects. In my setup the buttons do the following:
6 - Turn on/off the patch default Modulation effect (usually Chorus)
7 - change Modulation effect type to phasor on 1st press & tremolo on 2nd press
8 - Turn on/off the patch default reverb effect
9 - Turn on/off the patch default delay effect
10 - set tap delay duration
The 2 pedals are setup to control:
Pedal 1 - controls the Modulation rate (whichever Mod effect is on & selected : chorus/phasor/tremolo from slow to fast)
Pedal 2 - pre-amp volume
This setup gives me the same control as I had with the Line 6 FVB MkII & more. OK, there are a few minor niggly issues as you might expect, mainly due to me trying to be too clever in how the board controls the amp but there are no deal breakers. For me this is the perfect gigging solution. Easy to transport; easy to setup & breakdown at the gig; full control of the amp at your feet; great sounds; range of volumes to suit each gig from quiet to LOUD simply using the master volume with no impact on tone ... Perfect!!
Patch Volumes
There are 3 controls on the ID260 that effect volume of any patch:
Gain : CC#6, 0 to 127
Volume : CC#7, 0 to 127
TVP (valve type) : CC#12, 0 to 5
Yes it would be nice to split the TVP into 2 controls: 1 to select the valve sound type & 1 to set the valve volume; & maybe we will get this in an update to the software ... in any case for now, by adjusting one or more of these 3 controls you should be able to match up the volumes between different patches.
So for example to balance up a clean sound to your 'blinding' crunch patch try a loud valve type (i.e. 6L6 or KT88) with near maximum patch volume (~10) and adjust the gain to match volume to your crunch patch. This should give you a punchy tight clean sound with lots of headroom due to the valve selection.
Again to get a solo boost on any patch you can use one or more of these 3 controls to achieve the boost as appropriate.
So again as an example for a boost to your 'blinding' crunch patch adjust patch volume to maximum (7 up to 10) and increase the gain as required to achieve the desired level of solo boost. There should be minimal compromise to the tone; in fact in my experience for a solo boost of a crunchy tone, increasing the gain should be part of the solution.
With my MIDI controller I have it set-up so that with a 2nd press of each of the 5 patch select buttons, adjustments are instantly made to both gain & volume to achieve the desired solo boost (on clean & dirty sounds). Pressing the patch button a 3rd time turns off the solo boost and puts gain & volume back as they were. This works great!
Food for thought? .. I hope this is of some help.
Cheers - Steve
I agree with you this amp is excellent value for money .. or rather I would say simply EXCELLENT actually!!
To try & give you some answers from my, admittedly only limited so far, experience with the ID260 ....
MIDI:
No, you can't control the master volume via MIDI (which would be a bad idea actually) .. but you can control the pre-amp volume (CC#7 with value 0 min to 127 max), which works great as a volume pedal. The pre-amp control lets you adjust the volume, via the pedal in real time, from 0 (or from a fixed minimum volume which is in practise more useful) up to either the full patch volume (or even higher if the pre-amp volume is not set to 10 on the amp for the particular patch)
e.g.
if a particular patch has an initial pre-amp volume of 7.5 on the amp (= 3 O'clock), this equates to a MIDI value of 7.5x12.7 = 95. Therefore in MIDI set your pedal to Control Change #7 with value 0 to 95. The pedal then lets you adjust the amp's volume from 0 to full patch volume (7.5).
Alternatively setting a minimum value greater than 0 would work better for volume swells; e.g. CC#7 with value 25 to 95.
Additionally in this example you could use the volume pedal to increase the patch level a bit by increasing the top value. e.g. CC#7 with value 0 to 127 (an increase of the maximum available patch volume from 7.5 to 10)
OK, per your goal of keeping the sweet spot of the patch-volume set to 7.5 might be compromised by using the pedal to adjust the pre-amp control to levels below 7.5 (but this is very subtle IMO); I guess it depends on what you want the volume pedal to do. I myself wouldn't use it a a solo boost control. For simple volume swells it works great ... & there is always your guitar volume control of course that interacts great with this amp (unlike some others)
There is so much flexibility via MIDI control you can set up the amp to be controlled just how you want it. The possibilities are almost only limited only by your imagination & ingenuity.
I've been using my Line 6 Spider IV 150 with a FBV MkII shortboard for a couple of years & really like the simplicity & ease & transportability & controllability of the rig: amp/ 2 leads/ pedal board, when compared to my previous heavy, bulky set-up of a Peavey Classic 50 4x10 with many pedals/effects, power supplies, leads. But the Line 6 never sounded as good as the Peavey at gig volumes (it had that typical digital thin, weedy tone and was very difficult to set up with matching volumes between clean & dirty patches). I had to have it virtually on full volume (150W !!!!) to be able to compete with the drums & bass; but it sounded different (i.e. worse!) at high volume when compared to how nice it sounded at home during setting up. Very frustrating!!!
When I read about the ID series, the reviews were great & seemed to be the answer to my problems. My only concern was the controllability in a live gigging situation. I needed a similar level of control that the Line 6 FVB gave me (like you say, to select patches, turn on/off effects, etc); the 4 footswitch FS10 pedal seemed of limited use from what i read & when I tried one out, I confirmed that it didn't provide the easy intuitive control I needed (i.e. it is virtually unusable in a live situation).
Being a bit of a Luddite when it comes to the tech side of music gear, I too had no previous experience of MIDI but was excited by what I read from other ID users about the power & flexibility of using a MIDI floorboard. So I took the plunge; sold the Line 6 & bought the ID260 together with the best value (cheapest) MIDI controller: the Behringer FCB1010 with UNO chip (at approx £120 total) which has 10 user programmable footswitches & 2 control pedals. This price compares IMO very favourably to the £50 for the FS10.
I'm still working with the FCB1010 & ID260 to get the perfect set-up for my use, but it has worked brilliantly in the few gigs that I've used it on so far. After each gig I come home with ideas for a few more tweaks to improve the control setup. But I can say that I'm very happy with it & it is a major improvement on my old Line 6 rig (& also the Peavey).
In my current ID260 & FBC1010 set-up I can:
Select 5 different patches using the bottom 5 buttons from clean to dirty (i.e. clean rythym /clean lead / clean-crunch / rocky-crunch / heavy) (i keep to a single bank of sounds for simplicity's sake but you can move between banks using the FCB1010 if you want to)
A 2nd press of each of the 5 patch-select buttons results a solo boost in volume for each patch/sound; a 3rd press removes the solo boost (see also my comments at the bottom).
The top 5 buttons are used in "stomp box" mode (due to the use of UNO chip mod to the FCB1010) which lets me turn on or off the ID260 built-in effects. In my setup the buttons do the following:
6 - Turn on/off the patch default Modulation effect (usually Chorus)
7 - change Modulation effect type to phasor on 1st press & tremolo on 2nd press
8 - Turn on/off the patch default reverb effect
9 - Turn on/off the patch default delay effect
10 - set tap delay duration
The 2 pedals are setup to control:
Pedal 1 - controls the Modulation rate (whichever Mod effect is on & selected : chorus/phasor/tremolo from slow to fast)
Pedal 2 - pre-amp volume
This setup gives me the same control as I had with the Line 6 FVB MkII & more. OK, there are a few minor niggly issues as you might expect, mainly due to me trying to be too clever in how the board controls the amp but there are no deal breakers. For me this is the perfect gigging solution. Easy to transport; easy to setup & breakdown at the gig; full control of the amp at your feet; great sounds; range of volumes to suit each gig from quiet to LOUD simply using the master volume with no impact on tone ... Perfect!!
Patch Volumes
There are 3 controls on the ID260 that effect volume of any patch:
Gain : CC#6, 0 to 127
Volume : CC#7, 0 to 127
TVP (valve type) : CC#12, 0 to 5
Yes it would be nice to split the TVP into 2 controls: 1 to select the valve sound type & 1 to set the valve volume; & maybe we will get this in an update to the software ... in any case for now, by adjusting one or more of these 3 controls you should be able to match up the volumes between different patches.
So for example to balance up a clean sound to your 'blinding' crunch patch try a loud valve type (i.e. 6L6 or KT88) with near maximum patch volume (~10) and adjust the gain to match volume to your crunch patch. This should give you a punchy tight clean sound with lots of headroom due to the valve selection.
Again to get a solo boost on any patch you can use one or more of these 3 controls to achieve the boost as appropriate.
So again as an example for a boost to your 'blinding' crunch patch adjust patch volume to maximum (7 up to 10) and increase the gain as required to achieve the desired level of solo boost. There should be minimal compromise to the tone; in fact in my experience for a solo boost of a crunchy tone, increasing the gain should be part of the solution.
With my MIDI controller I have it set-up so that with a 2nd press of each of the 5 patch select buttons, adjustments are instantly made to both gain & volume to achieve the desired solo boost (on clean & dirty sounds). Pressing the patch button a 3rd time turns off the solo boost and puts gain & volume back as they were. This works great!
Food for thought? .. I hope this is of some help.
Cheers - Steve
-
lightening_fingers
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Sun Aug 04, 2013 9:17 am
Steve
cheers for the info,
I'm used to a " clean, OD, crunch, solo" simple 4 patch setup with stomp box control on top.
sounds like I can easily achieve this with your setup.
I guess I need to get that midi controller and have a good play.
LF
cheers for the info,
I'm used to a " clean, OD, crunch, solo" simple 4 patch setup with stomp box control on top.
sounds like I can easily achieve this with your setup.
I guess I need to get that midi controller and have a good play.
LF
-
lightening_fingers
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Sun Aug 04, 2013 9:17 am
cuztard,
after reading your excellent post I`ve ordered a 1010 and its just arrived, a Uno EPROM is on its way to me as well.
once I`ve updated the firmware to the Uno spec, is it possible to utilise all the added stompbox controls without a PC editor? i.e. straight from the board?
also can the pre-amp volume upper limit (on the pedal) be set differently for each patch.
ta
LF
after reading your excellent post I`ve ordered a 1010 and its just arrived, a Uno EPROM is on its way to me as well.
once I`ve updated the firmware to the Uno spec, is it possible to utilise all the added stompbox controls without a PC editor? i.e. straight from the board?
also can the pre-amp volume upper limit (on the pedal) be set differently for each patch.
ta
LF
-
paulphoenix
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:27 am
- Location: Cornwall, UK
Hi Guys,
...interesting reading about the midi foot controller and use there of!
are there any latency issues when using a midi foot controller at all?
I have read that the FS-10 is slower than it could/should be?
I am now very intrigued about using a MFC and you've got me thinking about what I should put at my feet to compliment this great amp and use it to its best....
...interesting reading about the midi foot controller and use there of!
are there any latency issues when using a midi foot controller at all?
I have read that the FS-10 is slower than it could/should be?
I am now very intrigued about using a MFC and you've got me thinking about what I should put at my feet to compliment this great amp and use it to its best....
-
lightening_fingers
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Sun Aug 04, 2013 9:17 am
Paul,
My FS-10 has no latency issues at all, I think you might want to update to the latest amp firmware.
My main reason for the midi controller was the lack of flexibility fo the FS-10 and the lack of volume rocker.
LF
My FS-10 has no latency issues at all, I think you might want to update to the latest amp firmware.
My main reason for the midi controller was the lack of flexibility fo the FS-10 and the lack of volume rocker.
LF
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